Start of correspondence (Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 5:53 AM).
1. Marc Kelly e-mails blog We Are Not Free to 44 upper year undergraduate Physics students.
2. Daniel Pohl responds.
This sounds familiar somehow...I can't put my finger on it. Would it be possible for everyone who wants to be sent emails "like this" to reply all and say "yes I am interested, please continue to do so". I am only trying to find out if our class email list is being abused by non-thermo-relavent material.
I am also concerned, Marc, by the fact that my last response to you that was made in confidence (and still is) resulted in one of my comments being sent to everyone as one of your "Responses" used to show that there may be interest in changing the grading scheme. Although you did not mention my name, there are people in the class who would know that was my comment.
You seemed to completely miss the non-compliant tone of my email and selected the one sarcastic comment, that was intended as a joke, from my email to use in your response, making it seem as if I was in favour of your idea. This could be considered a libel defamation of my character to those who recognized my response, given that the other 99% of my email was contrary to that statement.
I respect your right to free speech Mark, but you should be more careful when compiling statistics relavent to your cause because misrepresenting them could cause erroneous understanding of how many people actually are interested in what you have to say.
- Daniel Pohl
3. Keith Godsoe, the 3rd Year Undergraduate Physics Rep, responds. Note: Keith responds also to a previous e-mail sent out by Marc Kelly suggesting the students discuss whether the class grading scheme is providing an optimal learning experience.
I'd have to stay I'm in complete agreement with Dan here. To be frank, I'm not interested in hearing about this non-issue anymore. Those who wish to continue to 'fight for their rights' (which as far as I'm concerned Dr. Harden has cut us huge breaks with his choice of assignment/midterm questions as is and has the right to grade us as he pleases) can continue to do so, but I refuse to take part and/or hear anything about it.
This entire year has been filled with a lot administrative issues, and I'm sick of dealing with it, or having it sit in the back of my head debating whether or not its an 'issue'.
Moreover Marc, from what I've read in these emails you haven't even proposed a 'solution' or rather an alternative to the current scheme. A scheme, for the record, I have seen in COUNTLESS courses to date whereby this issue has never been brought up before. DO NOT reply and tell me that everyone should have the right to choose their own grading scheme. That's not an option and it never will be. Grades are used to classify students' ability (or lack thereof) to complete the requirements of a course. That being said, if you're moving to abolish the grading system altogether I may have been more keen on listening to your propositions. The fact of the matter is to this point you've said NOTHING, continue to SAY NOTHING and I've grown tired of these emails.
This will be settled in class on Friday once and for all.
Marc I'm asking you to bring this issue up at the start of class. If you don't, I will. I'm asking everyone else who's had the patience to read through these emails to be ready to take a stance as to whether or not the grading scheme should be reconsidered. I will be the first (or second as I assume Dans reply is in line with mine) to say things are fine as they are, and this needs to be put to rest.
Best regards,
Keith Godsoe
3rd Year Undergraduate Rep (Dept. of Physics)
Rep du premier cycle 3e année (Dépt. de physique)
4. Guylain Greer responds.
I am also sending this to Dan so that he may send it to those who replied to him that they would like to receive these emails.
"It is not the freedom to choose what we do which makes us free, but the freedom to choose what we do not do."
I believe this is incorrect logic because in choosing what we do, we must at the same time be choosing what we do not do. If we are not choosing what we do not do, then we must not be choosing what we do either. So I believe choosing what we do and choosing what we do not do are equivalent statements.
I agree with your position about grades and I feel that learning would be much more possible if grades were not a part of our lives. However students, professors and universities in general feel the need to know just how well they are doing compared to others or to some standard and what easier way is there to do that than with this grading scheme idea?
I feel that if you want to send a message to the university by not writing the midterm, handing in assignments or writing the final exam then you should be careful and explicit in what message you are trying to send. Are you trying to say that Jim Harden is the only one that is like this or would the message you would like to send be better represented by not handing in ANY assignments, writing ANY midterms or ANY final exams? I also feel that the message you would be sending would be all the stronger if this was more than just you sending this message. I believe that if this idea seems popular with those in stat mech than the idea should be presented to the SSA to see if all students feel the same way as you do.
I believe that for this to be successful students need to see just how having grades detriments their learning AND that a new and functional idea be presented to replace grades, a system that would allow this freedom of choosing that you are after. I also believe that many students will be afraid to go up against a concept so now fundamental as being graded and they will be afraid to oppose it.
Best of luck to you and sincere wishes for your success,
Guylain Greer
5. Marc Kelly addresses the students' complaints, and replies to Guylain Greer.
... if you don't care about these issues please just speak up to everyone and say why! And we'll stop sending you e-mails! Do people really feel that these are "not Physics related" issues? Am I the only one who feels that the process of learning, i.e. how it is that we actually come to learn, understand, and apply these deep physical principles, that this is an issue inseparable from Physics itself? ...
Hi Guylain,
Thank you very much for thinking critically about the things I wrote, and questioning the things I say. Your arguments are convincing, and you raise good points, which force me to rethink my reasoning. You are right about the logical incorrectness of the statement I made regarding whether we are free. My use and frequent reiteration of the idea that "we are not free" is of course an exaggeration. Realistically, our level of freedom is much higher than what I proclaimed it to be. I am well aware of this. Of course we can choose to not do things, and that is exactly what I am doing. But there are serious consequences to this, and it is the fear of these consequences which coerces us into doing things that deep down we don't really want to be doing (sometimes). Not because we are lazy or unmotivated or anything like that, but because we often want to do OTHER things - other things that could be completely compatible and acceptable alternatives. But in the current educational system, we are not allowed to seek totally reasonable alternatives. We must comply to the rigid standards. It's just not practical any other way.
>> However students, professors and universities in general feel the need to know just how well they are doing compared to others or to some standard and what easier way is there to do that than with this grading scheme idea?
I totally agree. There are plenty of external reasons for having a grading system that have nothing to do with learning. I think that is the problem! But the system should be set up to ensure the best possible personal and cognitive development of every individual student. If external rewards and punishments are bad (are they?) then get rid of them! Is this realistic? I don't know. I think it is a wide open question, and deserves to be explored. I do not claim to have any answers. Actually, I'm quite confused whenever I think about this issue. But my gut feeling tells me that it should be possible to live in an educational system that recognizes the individual needs, motivations, and thought patterns of every students. We do not all learn in the same way. I think it is ridiculous to pretend that we do. But the problem is we have not even had the chance to explore how we learn independently.
>> I feel that if you want to send a message to the university by not writing the midterm, handing in assignments or writing the final exam then you should be careful and explicit in what message you are trying to send.
What message am I sending? I have no idea! I don't really know what I am doing (well, that's not quite true...). But I will do it because it feels right somehow, and I am sure I will learn something along the way, and if I am lucky I might accomplish something important.
>> I also feel that the message you would be sending would be all the stronger if this was more than just you sending this message.
For sure! Does anyone else want to try learning without any external rewards or punishments and sacrifice their precious transcript?
>> I believe that for this to be successful students need to see just how having grades detriments their learning AND that a new and functional idea be presented to replace grades, a system that would allow this freedom of choosing that you are after.
Yes! My next blog will be about HOW external rewards and punishments detriment learning. It has to do with the suppression of creativity. David Bohm (the Quantum Physicist) has written about this a lot, check out "Creativity and What Blocks It" or one of his many books:
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/peat_bohm.htm
A new and functional idea to replace grades? Well, I don't think anything should REPLACE grades, but I can't say what an functional alternative would be. I think we could only figure that out by exploring and experimenting. By being creative in the classroom. By letting the curriculum evolve based on the students' evolving interests, ideas, and suggestions.
>> Are you trying to say that Jim Harden is the only one that is like this or would the message you would like to send be better represented by not handing in ANY assignments, writing ANY midterms or ANY final exams?
No, this is not about Jim Harden at all. Jim Harden is teaching us in the best way he knows how, and following the principles he strongly believes in. I respect that. But EVERYONE is teaching in the way that Jim Harden is teaching! Has a professor every asked us, the students, perhaps at the start of the semester, how we would like to be taught? Am I crazy, or would that not be a really great thing? We could say things like "ask us more questions!", or "stop writing on the board for 10 minutes and let us discuss things as a group!", or "we don't even like passively listening to lectures, we would rather just talk about things and argue and debate and question and discuss!"
>> I also believe that many students will be afraid to go up against a concept so now fundamental as being graded and they will be afraid to oppose it.
Getting rid of grades? Impossible! The grade system of the University is intricately embedded within the whole of our societal organization. So lets just accept that, not write useless blogs about it, and move on, right?
>> Best of luck to you and sincere wishes for your success.
Thanks! I'll let you know what I learn.
Sincerely,
Marc
6. Catherine Aldous responds.
Okay these emails are getting annoying.. You should at least know what you want/are fighting for if you continue to fight.
Do you honestly think it is appropriate to ask the university to cater to each and every students needs? Do you realize how many students there are? Professors do their job (generally) as the university has standards for the way things are taught in order to do its best to teach everyone, while still having a ciriculum that can be understood to other institutes, grad studies, employments, etc. If you have an issue with this, the solution is really quite simple. You are better off learning on your own and not paying the $5000 tuition if all you will do is complain about the way you are paying them to teach you.
I don't think failing the course is going to help your cause. I think the only thing that may come from it is that you may realize that it was a bad idea if you want to do things like graduate, or pursue your studies in an institution.
I hope you find what you want, however, please don't interrupt us and our learning in the process. I have to admit, I don't much appreciate that you bothering Dr. Harden about this issue prevented me from asking him questions before the midterm. And I hope that if you plan to discuss this on Friday that it doesnt take a large portion of the class.
Again, I apologize for being rude. If you would like someone to discuss this with, I suggest speaking with Dr. Rancourt. Our solid state class has no grades and follows whatever the students would like to cover and such (and in the end is screwing over anyone who needed this for scholarships, or for learning solid state physics). You would probably enjoy it, it's too bad you are not registered in the course.
I would appreciate it if you didn't send any part of this email to the entire class.
7. Marc Kelly replies to Catherine Aldous.
>> If you would like someone to discuss this with, I suggest speaking with Dr. Rancourt.
That is a good idea! Dr. Rancourt is now on the e-mail list.
>> Do you honestly think it is appropriate to ask the university to cater to each and every students needs?
Yes. That is what it is all about. It is practical? Is it possible? Do those questions even matter?
>> If you have an issue with this, the solution is really quite simple. You are better off learning on your own and not paying the $5000 tuition if all you will do is complain about the way you are paying them to teach you.
We are not complaining, we are questioning. We are critically analyzing. We are thinking and pondering and wondering. We are doing.
>> I think the only thing that may come from it is that you may realize that it was a bad idea if you want to do things like graduate, or pursue your studies in an institution.
Whatever happens, I will learn valuable things. I am learning valuable things in just discussing and debating these issues with you and everyone. I am sure there are others reading these e-mails but not responding who are beginning to think about things they may not have otherwise thought about. They will form opinions, and they might share their opinions to others. People will talk, Ideas will propagate.
>> I hope you find what you want, however, please don't interrupt us and our learning in the process.
I will do my best to not disrupt those who wish to not be disrupted. But disruption is part of life and part of learning. Things change. Things evolve. It is a good thing.
>> I have to admit, I don't much appreciate that you bothering Dr. Harden about this issue prevented me from asking him questions before the midterm.
Yes, we were both deeply engaged, sorry about that. If there were no midterm, and no deadlines for understanding, then you could have enjoyed your state of uncertainty and used it as a driven force to explore the grand landscape of collective human knowledge.
>> And I hope that if you plan to discuss this on Friday that it doesnt take a large portion of the class.
Whatever happens will be a reflection of what the students want.
8. Joe Hickey replies to Keith Godsoe.
Keith,
From what I can tell, your e-mail is really responding to the earlier e-mails that were going around regarding making a change to the grading scheme for PHY3355. As you said, no concrete alternative to the current grading scheme has been proposed.
I agree with you in that it would be much more interesting to discuss the abolition of grades rather than talking about changing around how the weightings of assignments and tests will affect our final marks. This is precisely what Marc is doing - he has decided to remove grades from his experience of learning Statistical Thermodynamics. He described it in detail in the letter that he sent to us this morning.
Doesn't anyone else feel like we're missing out on a chance to explore and contemplate a beautiful and fascinating aspect of our world? How much time have you had this semester to really think about the different concepts of entropy, about what they mean? I can't come close to understanding these things without asking people questions, blurting out ideas and having them refuted or celebrated, without trying to express the ideas in my own words instead of just using someone else's symbols.
I would love it if we could use some of our PHY3355 class time to throw around ideas about what these Z's and H's that we keep frantically writing down actually mean. How about setting up every second lecture as a time to have group discussion, with Prof. Harden, about the concepts that we covered in the previous class? As it is right now, asking a question in class feels like trying to slow down a freight train by grabbing onto a handle on the side.
Marc, I applaud your choice to escape the rat-maze, and only wish I had the balls to do the same!
-Joey
9. Greg Erickson responds.
These emails are hilarious, keep em coming.
10. Jean-Michel Guay responds.
THEN GO TO SOCIAL SCIENCES for crying out loud!!!!
And leave my good damn email box empty.
You think a system were no grades would be better that would be the day, were an engineer building a bridge which was never graded for is achievement would aloud to construct our city bridges or a doctor too perform surgery when he was never graded to make the difference between what could save a life or not.
Any idiot can critise a system but doesnt have a intelligent alternative, it takes a greater person to find a alternative to such system were it is in fact raisonnable.
It irritates me thats someone that is vision of his future is no wider then hair. If you wanna bring yourselves down then do it yourself or leave the university and start your damn fan club.
Ive been asking profs lately, since im finding myself in a class were a teacher believe in such idiocy, what is our diploma worth compare to other university I THE ANSWER WOULD SURPRISE YOU!! because we are not learning what are supposed to be learning it was the majority that said we are behind and that they would look for grad students outside the faculty before us! And that is because of a certain individual that is screwing our future.
And if he actually give a flying shit he would not be putting us in such a situation. But then you don't seem to care about your future that doesn't mean you have to bring all the students that worked hard to be here.
To think that giving the right way to all idiots to do what they please is your system, then your system is HORSESHIT!
Would you really want to be operated by a person that never got graded or tested on his knowledge? face it also doing this would give a bad reputation to the department and so your diploma once you go in the market world.
But again your vision seems to be so focused on something as stupid as this would prevent you from looking at the big picture and come up with some reasoning.
I would always welcome a person with an INTELLIGENT alternative to the system and honestly this one not one of them!
I go on for friggen days but honestly i wasted enough time on this idiocy and need to do something productive.
You want freedom of speech this is mine!!!!
11. Marc Kelly replies to Greg Erickson.
They sure are! It's fascinating what people think eh? I did not know so much of this.
Marc
12. Greg Erickson replies to Marc Kelly.
Definitely. I'm glad you're opening discussion on this, and surprised how set in their ways (close minded even) some people are... Friday should be an interesting class to say the least.
Greg Erickson
13. Matt Ugray responds.
Please stop wasting our time. Stop sending us emails. You told everyone about your blog. If people want to hear you, they can read it. Stop misusing the email addresses that you got from Prof. Harden's
communications.
Matt Ugray
14. Joe Hickey replies to Jean-Michel Guay.
Jean-Michel,
I think that the responsibility for evaluation should not be on the university, but on whatever group it is that is trying to recruit members (e.g. a business, an institution, a community, etc.). If you're a business owner, looking to hire a new employee, you interview candidates and decide which one meets your (subjective) needs, right? University should be a place to explore and learn things that you can then present as knowledge/skills/experience to some group that you wish to join later on. As it is now, the marking system crushes exploration and creativity.
If I get sick, for sure I want to see a doctor whom I can trust to be competent. Who should determine whether or not doctors are competent? Well, if a community is in need of a doctor, they will need to hire one. There are probably all kinds of ways in which a community can evaluate a potential doctor. E.g. the candidate would have to have a documented record of medical experience, references from her training, she would have to pass interviews with doctors already working in the community, etc..
All I'm saying there is that there are other ways of making evaluations. I'm sick of jumping through hoops to get a letter grade and being able to learn in my own way, which would make me a much more valuable member of the employment market than I am going to end up being with my degree.
Joey
15. Keith Godsoe replies to Marc Kelly.
Marc,
With all due respect, I've officially decided that your opinions mean nothing to me.
You have no decency in that you decide to forward students' responses when they specifically tell you not to. They're trying to provide you with honest feedback to further your endeavors, and you decide to share it with the world when requested not to do so. What kind of respect does that show for your peers?
I hope you realize that you're alienating yourself from others. Originally, I was inclined to hear you out for the sake of argument. After this 'incident' (you also forwarded someone else's email as well) I've decided to ignore all incoming mail that you send from now on. I hope my fellows peers decide to do the same so that the issue just disappears.
We will finalize this discussion tomorrow in class, and believe me: you will NOT have the last say.
You've lost my respect, and are nothing more than a shit-disturber. Stop wasting people's times and go about your own business independent of us.
Keith
16. Marc Kelly replies to Keith Godsoe.
>> With all due respect, I've officially decided that your opinions mean nothing to me.
Alright, thank you for letting me know that.
>> You have no decency in that you decide to forward students' responses when they specifically tell you not to... and you decide to share it with the world when requested not to do so. What kind of respect does that show for your peers?
That is a good point, and I am glad you raised it. I am completely aware that some people have explicitly asked me to not forward their e-mails, and that I have gone ahead done so regardless. These are very important issues that we are discussing, and I think it is crucial that any opinions be put out there for everyone to question, analyze, reflect upon, and discuss. This is much more important than any personal issues of "I hope people don't think bad things about me in their heads". I am quite sorry if I hurt your feelings, but we are all intellectuals, so do away with those childish fears and SPEAK OUT. The purpose is not to make personal judgments, but to get our ideas out into the open and available for discourse.
Also, why do people keep writing only to me? Haven't we all decided that we don't care about Marc's opinions? Voice your opinions to ALL of your peers! Everyone benefits from that. It is part of being human and living in a group environment.
>> I hope you realize that you're alienating yourself from others.
That is unfortunate. My goal was to establish lines of communication with my peers. But, actually, I feel more integrated in having done so, as I am sure everyone who is reading these e-mails feels as well. Although there seems to be some misplaced negative feelings amoung certain individuals, I hope most people realize that what we are doing is a very good thing, whether or not we all see eye-to-eye (when does that ever happen anyways?).
>> I hope my fellows peers decide to do the same so that the issue just disappears.
And where will it go?
>> We will finalize this discussion tomorrow in class, and believe me: you will NOT have the last say.
Oh I do believe you for sure. Did I really come across as wanting to have the last say? I think it is important that the last say, whatever that means, be a wholistic representation of what all students think and feel. It should not be a decision made by one person, no matter who that person is. My voice is only one among a large group of equal individuals who all have the same right to voice their opinions and be heard by the others. Together, as long we keep our cool and do not turn these important issues into personal attacks, I think we can resolve many internal and external conflicts that seem to be absolutely pertinent to our learning experience.
17. Denis Rancourt responds.
Wow. I feel rather privileged to be part of this discussion.
Thank you to those who suggested that I be included. I agree with Marc that this topic and the associate exchange are important and useful.
At the same time, I can see that these ideas are both threatening and frightening to many students.
I think this guy Keith Godsoe is over the top with his threats but I am certain that the class can work it out, as reasonable groups usually do. Just don't let anyone be the boss of you.
I try to encourage this type of discussion in my classes and I have a very hard time getting this to occur. Therefore Professor Harden must be doing something right.
I feel a great thrust of exploration and openness in all of this, so I am going to take a chance and suggest this reading:
"Are physicists smart?"
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060904&articleId=3140
The last time I sent it around the department, there were some pretty intense reactions, so it probably won't leave you indifferent.
PS: I hate to add information to this exchange, but physicists in North America actually research physics pedagogy and study alternative grading systems, including no grades, etc. For example, UBC has a new research chair in this area (a Nobel laureate no less). I can send you links to an upcoming conference on the topic if you like, or suggest readings, especially for those who claim that no other "intelligent" system has ever been developed... (amazing how much some people know from being exposed to only one possibility). And the top historian of science and technology (David F. Noble) has this to say about grades:
http://activistteacher.blogspot.com/2007/04/giving-up-grade.html
dgr
http://www.science.uottawa.ca/~dgr/
18. Aymeric Dugué responds.
Bonjour,
J'espère que vous comprenez le français. Mais, j'ai quelques difficultés avec l'anglais qui n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Bon, tout d'abord, mettons les choses au point. Cette histoire d'e-mails commence à m'énerver. Si vous avez un problème avec l'évaluation du cours, allez voir le professeur et parlez-en au lieu d'utiliser nos adresses pour nous envoyer tous ces e-mails. Arrêtez aussi ce discours : "nous ne sommes pas libres et blablabla..." Dr. Harden et Dr. Rancourt ont le droit de nous
enseigner et de nous noter comme ils le veulent, point barre. Ensuite, si vous voulez ne pas aller à l'examen final, c'est VOTRE problème, pas le nôtre. Personnellement, je m'en fiche. Mais, cessez avec cette vision manichéenne : "le système nous empêche d'être libre et re-blablabla...", "le prof est un dictateur..." Non, vraiment ? Je veux bien reconnaître que le système éducatif actuel n'est pas parfait. Mais un enseignement "totalement libre" ne l'est pas non plus. D'ailleurs, avez-vous vraiment enseigné ? Savez-vous au moins de quoi vous parler ? Croyez-vous que nous serions plus libres si on n'avait pas d'examen ?
Entre temps, j'aimerais ne plus recevoir ce genre de messages et que cette discussion reste sur votre blog.
Cordialement.
Aymeric Dugué
19. Bryan Dodgson responds.
To all,
Compared to all the spam I get on a daily basis, these emails are probably the least offensive (and most welcome) assault to my inbox.
What do you all have to do that is so important that you can't take 5 min to read (or 2 seconds to delete) this email? These are your peers telling you what they think of the education system that you are a part of. If you came here spend all day copying notes and handing in tests you should have thought about DeVry. This is University. An educational forum. Free speech and all that jazz. Yeah!.. and if you don't like it... thats cool too, you don't have to be a part of it. But you can't ask people to stop talking about it.
Even if you disagree with whatever is being said by Marc, you have to be able to admit that it is a refreshing change of pace from the everyday compliance present in every single class out there (with the obvious exception of Prof. Rancourt's class). And maybe you're all cool with compliance, maybe thats your thing. If so, awesome! but Marc's not asking you not to comply, he's simply addressing the fact that one has the choice to not comply. And if you don't comply with his choice of non-compliance, you get to share in the fun of being non-compliant too!
Personally, I feel as though I am paying tuition so that I may be exposed to an environment of learning. Now sure, part of that learning comes from doing assignments and writing midterms, but another part of it comes from sharing experiences with a diverse group of people who may have different views, but ultimately all share the common goal of attaining knowledge. The sheer density of young and potent minds that fills the few blocks surrounding us is something that most of us will never experience again. Abuse it!
I believe that emails like Marc's are a good example of what I am paying tuition for. Simply reading a book does not constitute an education, being exposed to a stimulating intellectual environment does. This discourse is an education.
As for Marc's views being non-physics related: Can one not write a miterm/final and still pass the course? what will happen? what's the reaction to his action and why is it so? what do you hypothesize? This is an experiment... this is science!
And hey, physicists can fight the power too... I hear Galileo did. I also hear that Einstein was a less than ideal student, and that Stephen Hawkins wrote poor finals. Being different is what gives physicists the edge, because to come up with new ideas you have to think and act different than those before you.
Marc, I applaud your balls.
-Bryan Dodgson
(p.s would anyone be down for an organized casual discussion on this matter or physical matter? because apparently class is not the place to discuss these things.)
20. Marc Kelly replies to Bryan Dodgson.
>> p.s would anyone be down for an organized casual discussion on this matter or physical matter? because apparently class is not the place to discuss these things.
Bryan, that is an absolutely fantastic idea. Lets meet, and lets discuss! How about we organize this after class tomorrow? Maybe those who are interested can just come to the front of the class at the end of the lecture or something like that? I think in doing so it is important that we foster an environment that welcomes all opinions. Holding a different view point should be an invitation for discussion (not an initiation for battle!).
21. Don Bedard responds.
Holy tomales! Talk about the great university of ottawa physics war of 08!
Don't you people see this grading scheme is tearing us apart!
But kidding aside, I applaud Marc for standing up for what he believe in. I'd actually have the balls now to join you in your study, since after years dealing this fine institution for 5 years, i realize that failing a class isn't the end of the world. Unfortunately, I must pass all my classes to graduate this year, and as much as I'd like join your cause, I'm a bit selfish and would rather graduate. I do caution you Marc, based on my "great" experiences, i really doubt you will achieve much with getting your message to the university. But who knows, maybe you'll set an example.
I also find it very, very alarming the sheer anger and opposition from some students. Why is Marc discussing his views "a waste of time". I personally loved the explicitly long emails describing how this discussion is useless. Classic!
I see the same type of reaction in this discussion as we did in Quantum Mechanics a few weeks ago. Anyone will tell you the current system isn't working, but they will immediately oppose a change. I don't see how people just sit there and complain, yet bicker and whine if someone actually tries to bring something forward. I'm sorry some people have decided to ignore this discussion. But I guess their loss, right?
Cheers fellow rebels,conformers and in between!
Don Bedard
22. Greg replies to Marc Kelly.
Could you keep me posted on the meetings? I have quantum right after statmech, and I enjoy going to that class...
Greg
23. Nina Mamaeva responds.
Hello Everyone!!!
I think there are some more people in this country or in this world who have the same idea about the marking scheme. I think someone should make up a Facebook group, to see the opinions on this topic from other students from different universities. But the group should not contain the emails, otherwise no one would join, I think.
And!!! I would love to join you guys in the discussion on this matter ONLY IF there will be some food (pizza) or beer... (jk)
I'm pretty happy with the grading scheme we have right now, so please remove me from the list.
Thank you. Best wishes to all.
Nina Mamaeva
24. Marc Kelly suggests the students discuss the issues raised during this correspondence in class.
I suggest we start off tomorrow's class by doing three things:
1. find out how many people have been reading all of this junk.
2. find out how many people care.
3. find out how many people want to talk about stuff.
4. talk about stuff.
5. learn.
objections?
Marc
25. Jim Harden, the Professor, replies.
Marc,
Yes, I object.
The class period is reserved for statistical mechanics; We still have quite a bit of material we need to cover, and unfortunately we don't have extra time for xtracurricular discussions of this sort.
Of course, all interested parties may choose to discuss these issues (or anything else!) outside of class time, either face-to-face or electronically. I encourage you
to do so (however, you should respect the wishes of many who do not wish to receive such email correspondence).
Jim Harden
26. Rick Ueno replies.
I recommend omitting 1-4. I think this discussion should be kept here in the e-mail inboxes.
-Rick
27. Marc Kelly replies to Jim Harden.
Hey Jim,
Here's an idea. Lets ask the class what they want to do. I think they may have thoughts and opinions to share.
Regards,
Marc
End of correspondence (Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 12:54 AM).
